Olympic Classes and the OK Dinghy

[Martin Ward]

I am not sure whether this is a Technical or Gossip topic so please accept my apologies if I have posted to the wrong category. I just wondering whether the following would produce an interesting discussion?

I am assuming that everyone has heard the news that the 2016 Olympic Classes will include even more telly-visual sailing disciplines such as Kite Boarding while also dropping the Star Class. I can remember when Olympic Classes meant the largest and fastest sailing boat of its type which would be sailed by a suitable, Olympic looking athlete. I am thinking of the Flying Dutchman, Tornado Cat and the Dragon Keelboat. Now the Olympic Classes look like plastic beach boats chosen for media purposes. I can see the ISAF point as these new classes will be useful if we want to expand our sport and keep it as an Olympic discipline. I’m hoping that we will, one day, have sailing in the Winter Olympics, with Ice Yachting, Ice Windsurfing and Ice Kite Boarding, included as new events.

In the meantime I am wondering whether the ISAF will eventually change the way it selects Olympics Classes and decide to choose an existing International Class as a future/new Olympic Class. May be from 2020 onwards the ISFA should simply choose the most popular existing International Class of its type, rather than commission a new one. What I mean is, why not select the Sunfish as the Single Handed Class, the Flying Fifteen as the Keelboat Class and Snipe as the Double Hander. Ok each class would have to have a select a single builder so that a strict One Design version of each Class could be produced purely for Olympic reasons and the Club Sailors could continue with their Non-Olympic speck boats. This would show the sport as it really is and not just as a selection of hyped beach boats.

What would happen if the OK was chosen and an Olympic speck dinghy was produced as a strict One Design? How would the Laser sailors down the local Club feel about this? Would it bring some new Nations into Ok sailing and further increase the spread of the class. Surely the ISAF would want the sport seen as involving really boats with a grass roots history, for all to sail, rather than just the fashionable?

I am hoping that the above will produce some interesting comment and that it will be understood that I have suggested this with some tongue and cheek! After all I don’t want to start an argument with the ISAF.

Regards

Martin Ward

[davecooper]

“Chosen for the media” is exactly right IMO, Martin. The Olympics isn’t a sporting event any more, it’s an opera for television, hence ‘sports’ like synchronised swimming. It isn’t like professional sailing benefits the rest of the sport either: the pros are recruited from amateur dinghy sailing, but usually they seem to go from Olympic sailing to big boats and match racing and stuff, and they are lost for ever as far as ordinary club and class racing goes. Meanwhile the selection process draws in loads of youngsters to regional squads and stuff and of course for most of them, at some point, they’re told they just don’t have what it takes for the next stage, and a lot of them chuck it in at that point, whereas if they’d stayed in club sailing they’d have progressed to whatever level, wouldn’t have had that f*ck off moment and quite likely would have stayed with the sport for life.
You might gather from this that I’m not exactly a big fan of Olympic yachting as currently practised. It was fine back in the amateur era. Fortunately they never have cast their beady eyes on the OK class and hopefully never will! (Probably don’t want their sailors having that much fun! Also their glossy young athletes would certainly be corrupted by the OK fleet. It’d never do if they decided to get rat-arsed instead of doing another thousand sit-ups!). Of course, ISAF and the RYA and such really want to keep yachting as an Olympic sport – it’s their raison d’etre, but I think it does sod all for the rest of us.
Dave.

PS. I also thought Paris would be a REALLY GOOD PLACE to hold an Olympics!

[Martin Ward]

Dave

I think you are making some good points and talking a lot of sense. Basically I agreed with your comments, except the part about Paris.

I think the problem will be in 2016 that the public will not understand the different between a vintage class like the Shearwater and the new Nacra 17. After all the concept and construction of both Classes are identical. Equally does the Laser really teach sailors as much as the OK. I have met some Laser sailors that cannot even tie a knot (and I mean any knot). I wonder how International Moth or International 14 sailors feel about these new Olympic Classes. Many Moth and 14 sailors will have a detailed knowledge of design and construction of their classes as well as an historical understanding, while what knowledge will the sailors completing in the new Olympic Classes have.

Regardless of the above I am still grateful to the Olympic for including sailing in the Summer Games and hope that there will be a move to include ice sailing in the Winter Olympics.

To unit the sport the ISAF will eventually have to choose Olympic Classes from established International Classes rather than creating new ones.

Regards

Martin Ward

[Bill B]

I wonder how the current elite squad would get on with the Finn class if they were provided with identical boats, 2 sails and 2 standard wooden masts and they had ten days to alter the mast to suit the sails and their weight and and get up to speed. As I understand it, past champions like Paul Elvstrom had to do just that! They had an intimate knowledge of what made the boat go.
Bill

[Martin Ward]

Bill

I agree. A lot of the old essential skills have been lost and I see a lot of sailors who have very little skill considering themselves to be top racing sailors because they take full avantage of the rules on rocking and pumping. I am always shocked at the lack of knowledge of many of the new plastic plastic boat sailors from the Laser to todays New Classes.

I’m sure that the standard of boat handling in the Olympics is extremely high but it is interesting to look at how the sport has changed and wonder whether it has changed for the better. I have been watching youtu.be/1tHGeFYmbNI which shows a You Tube clip the medal race in the 49er class in 2008. There were so many capsizes that it makes me wonder whether a 505 or Flying Dutchman wouldn’t have just sailed straight pass these Olympic 49er sailors in these conditions. These 49ers were catching the waves with their solid wings and were capsized as a result. Does this really make the sport look good? Surely we should be appreciating the skill involved in sailing a boat hard but fast to windward and not enjoying a series of crashes?

At least the Finn is still in the Olympics for 2012 and 2016 and we can at least enjoy the Star for one more Olympics.

Regards

Martin Ward

[hughsheehy]

Gotta say that I can’t quite see planing down a wooden mast as an “essential skill”.

As for the possibility of an FD or 505 beating a 49er around the course in a blow, it’s quite possible. However, in those kind of conditions 505s can wipe out pretty nicely too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5edIDduOfS4#t=73.5s

[Martin Ward]

Hugh

Planning the mast to have the correct mast bend at the required point along the lenght of the mast, was essential to good racing performance, in the same way that carbon masts are layed up differently, ie with more or less layers of carbon to control mast bend and therefore in turn control sail shape. It all depends whether you consider first place as essential in racing or are you happy to come second? These skills have now been forgotten now that the cottage industrial of sailing/boat building has moved into the modern age. Sailors now only have boat handling skills and the wider skills which included boat building ect have been increasing left exclusively to boat builders. Sailing now has a much narrower skills focus.

I take your point about the 505 verses the 49er though I do feel that the 505 is the better sea boat in general.

It is interesting to note the according to the Class reports listed on the ISFA website the 49er Class only has 1300 boats built to date. The 49er Class has been going for years and should have done better. In comparison the 505 has, (according to the ISAF’s 505 Class report) as many as 9085 sail numbers, issued since 1954 and about 2500 boats still racing. In turn the 505 can be compared to the Snipe with 31060 sail numbers issued since 1931.

There are some real questions to be answered about the type of skills tested by these Olympic Classes, their sailing performance and there true popularity.

I would much rather see established International Classes used in the Olympics after 2016.

Regards

Martin Ward

[mr-mac]

Agree,

Also rather than just fastest I thought in days gone by onlympic classes used to be chosen because they actually required some work to get the best out of them… Finn (a serious physical challenge), Soling (still in my mind one of the best 3 man racing keelboats and with all the adjustment available on the rig required knowledge and experience to go fast – would easily show the difference between a crew that was the perfect spot on weight and one with better knowledge and teamwork). I got refused a Scottish Squad 470 because in the coaches words – I was too heavy to be a 470 helm (weighed 10.5 stone at the time. In the end the boat went to a guy who was a crew (I took him out a few times in his 470) he had very little sailing knowledge, little racing knowledge and really didn’t have a clue what he was doing in a boat (was even pretty useless on a trapeze) He was perfect height and weight for the 470 crew though… Gotta wonder about things like that though because I could easily have lost weight but that guy was gonna take 10 years to get up to anywhere even near Nationals levels never mind fighting for a UK team place.

I agree Olympic boats should be picked from current established classes. Wouldn’t say the most popular but a criteria for each class then pick from a list of classes popular in that area of the world but also with a presence worldwide (this would hopefully mean changes in the class from Olympics to Olympics to give publicity to different boats.

[Martin Ward]

Mr Mac

I couldn’t agree more. Your points made a great deal of sense to me. I was very interested in your comments about the Soling as I know little about them and have read much more about the Dragon, 6 Meter and 5.5 Meter.

I would be very interested to know what your perfect Olympic Line up of Classes would be?

I think mine would be the Finn for Men and with a smaller 7 meter rig the Finn again for Women. I would have the Snipe as a two person boat with a separate Men’s and Women’s fleets. May be the Flying Fifteen and use a One Design version of the A Class Cat should have a role? I am not sure what the remaining Classes should be? Any Ideas?

Regards

Martin Ward

[mr-mac]

Been out of sailing for a long time –

So my old list would have been

Finn – Men (was nothing really wrong with Europe for woman but would an OK not be as good an option as a finn with scaled down rig???) Ok was always good as a finn for lighter weights so would also make OK a superb junior class for youth sailing squads etc.

470 – Always thought it was a great boat again with a very adjustable controllable rig.
Alternative or extra 2 person boat (B14e would be a good crowd pleaser so something along b14e fast skiff type affair)

2 man keelboat – FF (star was an ok boat but think FF is a actually quite like a small Soling to sail with good adjustable rig and fast esp. when weather gets up a bit.

3 man keelboat – Soling (I know there have been others but think it is the best – everything can be adjusted (inc backstay, forestay and both sets of side stays so rig can have everything including tension, rake, mast bend, jib luff sag which makes it a boat that requires you know your stuff) on flipside though they are a nice easy boat to get going in and not too likely to bite you in ass.

Cat – Tornado was and still is a seriously quick cat and very hard to sail well… An updated version with an Asymetric Spinnaker would be good as the runs were boring.

Thing is though I think it should change and not be set in stone but should be selected from established classes. I think it should be published 8 years up front and it should be 4 Olympics before it’s re-used. Why? Cos it gives a variety of classes a benefit of the publicity. it also stops the Olympic class stigma. The Finn was never sailed by a lot of people or in great numbers why? Not because it wasn’t a great boat but cos it was the Olympic class which meant that to be competitive even at national level you needed a lot of money, stiff hull, continually updating rig (sure there is a nice mix of equipment in top 10 ok at nationals – I mean older hulls, some who do not replace sails all the time, even a metal mast or two). 470 was/is a great boat but again not large fleets. Keeping a boat as Olympic boat can be detrimental to a class as well.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[Martin Ward]

Mr Mac

I really liked your ideas on Olympic Classes.

I thought I should explain that the reason I think that the Finn with a seven meter rig should be used for the Women’s single hander class is that is would allow Countries to manufacture or buy in hulls centreboards and rudders which could be swapped between mens and womens teams to save cash. Also knowledge relating to the Finn could be directly swapped between genders. The seven meters of sail area would make the rig much smaller than the OK. On the down side the whole dinghy would still weight 120kg and would mean that some women would prefer to have help in lauching their boats but then women sailing around the world in Open 60’s wouldn’t be lauching their own boats either.

The OK would make a really good Olympic Class and would be even more useful as a training dinghy if it had a number of training rigs or even better a fully reefable rig. May be someone will invent a telescopic mast for the OK and a better method of reefing than using reefing points or even zip reefing.

I really think that the OK would be a great training dinghy for any Olympic Class as after sailing an OK you can sail almost anything.

What would be very interesting to know is how many Olympic Medal winners have sailed an OK at international level? How many World Champions from other Classes have sailed in the OK?

Regards

Martin Ward

[mr-mac]

Ok is great boat…

Countries teams won’t swap bits each person will have their own boat at that level… in fact OK may be better than Finn for men too. I think OK is more suitable for a greater range of weights than Finn (6ft tall with water jacket anyone?) begins to move away from best sailor but bust sailor of perfect height and weight.

Think it’s also time to consider weight equalisation at Olympic level so everyone is trying to move the same weight with same sail area and distributing it fron’t rear etc. to keep advantage of 6ft + 12 stone crew and 7stone helm (as in 470). How do we do this I am not sure, in skiff like classes with wings the weights are added in a fron’t and rear position to equalize all boats to a certain level. Then have wing sizes adjusted so height gives no advantage. This then means we get closer to finding best of the best.

The finn is hard for lighter weights but with some weight equalisation and range of masts OK can cope well with anywhere from 78 stone to 1516 stone or more.

I think weight and balance equalization and height adjustment sides are something to consider (horses have weight added, darts has positions for heights). If you go one design you often favour one size and one weight.

Anyway just some extra food for thought

[Author]

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